Elm was initially designed by Evan Czaplicki as his thesis in 2012. And pre-0.17, that needed signals, so essentially you needed a big conceptual framework to be able to use that. I think if you look at the stack, the frontend stack, the thing that is the most… Oh man, I hope I don’t get beat up by the CSS people out there, because I’m one of them, too… But you have to admit that CSS is probably one of the most quirkiest pieces of the frontend, right? That’s probably a good place to close things down for this show. This is something we’ve discovered as we observed people writing programs over the last couple of years. I have been doing a lot of work on making Elm assets really tiny. We still got that. From what I understand, he’s been this behind-the-scenes, incredibly helpful in so many different ways to making the conference happen. I’m very interested in seeing how far we can go with that in that direction. So the Emerging Languages Camp—ElmConf is in the same spot as that one. Yeah, actually I’ve been quiet here most of the time listening to you guys dig deep into quite a bit of stuff here, but we’re obviously building the next version of the Changelog on Elixir and Phoenix. [laughs] I’ll come back and be like, “I did it again, and this time — oh, it’s so much nicer! Where you can actually read it in line with you writing it? evancz. Elm started in 2012 as a pet project of Evan Czaplicki, with the aim of developing a language for the frontend without all those nasty runtime exceptions typical of Javascript, along with a strict type system.He wrote the compiler in Haskell, because he wanted to recreate the same great experience, namely: if it compiles, then it works. For NoRedInk to say that they have zero… What was it again, Richard? Goals and values of elm-package. Even though that means that one database is going to have more stuff in it. I’m super excited that ElmConf is co-hosted with Strange Loop. Compilers do not have the best reputation. I’ve gotten over it just because it’s silly to be upset about it, because it’s still really positive for Elm, even if no one knows that there’s any direct inspiration; even if there’s not. The way I write a program in Elm or similar languages is I start with a file and I essentially let it grow until I notice things that are used in many places or things that are sort of related concepts. It’s really easy to think about other things instead, or fix things around…. We just came to a similar conclusion, working from similar premises. It’s pretty hard to do that with styles. Absolutely, CSS is one of the hardest parts about web development. Their intent is admirable: find sneaky bugs, help fix them, and generate fast code. I think it might be interesting to see what the discovery process looked like. Because it just doesn’t make sense in Elm. Basically, because he wants it to exist. Yeah… I’m just trying to ponder why it feels like what you’re “supposed to do” is wait for a big rewrite, and the answer to that is that it’s just a different language. He works on Elm full-time, developing … And my alternate phrasing of that is that before, you would to use signals for that, and signals in some way were tough to weave into the basic Elm architecture that everyone wanted to write. And I was like, "I really think I can make this functional programming stuff easier". [00:36:17.21] Yeah, and we’ve had things like this in the past where we needed to introduce a particular concept that is generally useful. I think Richard’s got an alarm set or something like that. Evan is the lead designer and developer of Elm, a functional programming language for the web that he designed to ease some of the most common headaches caused by traditional programming languages. But specifically, to be very explicit about this, every single Rollbar error we’ve seen in the past, ever since we’ve introduced Elm, the fix has always been in 100% of the cases not changing any Elm code. So, the most recent feature I shipped at work was a really big complicated… so, I work at an education company called NoRedInk. I had this feeling that I was working on… In theory, I was in the best environment to have a good experience, and the kind of things that were difficult were just comically bad. We spend almost all of our front-end coding time writing Elm. It’s like every time we add a new feature for our teachers, like a new type of quiz they can do, we have to modify that thing. We use Elm a lot at NoRedInk; we love it. This is a big difference between object-oriented and functional programming. So you know the console in the JavaScript developer tools, how you can open up arrays and see all of the things - I’m working on a version of that for Elm values, and that’s something where the Expando logic is in a module. So this was definitely a case where whenever I talked to people that have a success story on Elm, it was, “We tried this little corner of our project, and that was nice. We can write great error messages.” So the question was going to be, “How do you feel about all these people stealing your awesome ideas?” It sounds like you like it. I want to make this concrete… I’m not sure if I have a good example. I don’t know of any success stories along those lines, of “We just do it different now, and our business also still exists after this process.” [laughter]. Or maybe a common scenario, but for the kind of things I write in Elm, it’s different. It’s easy to think of that as being opinionated, but in Elm it’s just the way things come out. Sure, at least from my perspective as a web developer. Evan Czaplicki NoRedInk. [01:16:02.05] Yeah, I was joking about this with my mom at some point. Functional Programming . Yeah. We hired Elm creator Evan Czaplicki in 2015 to continue developing the language, and we're hiring! The bots that help run Wikipedia. He has spent the last few years improving the language and supporting folks who use it. What’s different about Elm is that it uses static type checking, which aids in the elimination of … The language was first developed by Evan Czaplicki in 2012. evancz has 36 repositories available. You can try or install it. I can’t claim to be really good at that, yet. You have a different compiler and conceptually, when you’re starting a project, you pick a language and that’s the language that the whole project uses. At some point, I was like, “This is cool, but I’d like for it to move and interact.” I was coming from a functional background, and I didn’t want to just introduce all the kinds of mutations and side effects that are not in this language, that make them so nice. So when React comes out, they’re coming with this, “What if your views work in this particular way?” and it looks quite similar, but it’s a case of co-invention, as far as I can tell. In the initial implementation of the elm compiler tasks on HTML, CSS and JavaScript. I guess at some point they… I haven’t talked to them about what the exact story was, but my guess would be that they were asking Alex for conference advice, and he probably offered to be like, “Why don’t you do it with Strange Loop? So, the most recent feature I shipped at work was a really big complicated… so, I work at an education company called NoRedInk. He works at NoRedInk, a company with about 100k lines of Elm in production that have never thrown a runtime exception. NoRedInk. Zero runtime exceptions, the error messaging that are friendly — it’s kind of famous for that - the semantic versioning that’s been forced on libraries… So many cool things about it, and so much interest in the community. Evan is the lead designer and developer of Elm, a functional programming language for the web that he designed to ease some of the most common headaches caused by traditional programming languages. It’s always changing JavaScript, even sometimes server-side code. I want to emphasize something here, which is not that modularity is a bad idea, it’s just that modularity looks very different in an object-oriented language that doesn’t have types versus a functional language that has a module-system and a type-system. I know Ember, the components system, 'data … I’ve just had a really pleasant, delightful experience around it. We actually just came out with a new version of Elm Test, which is Elm’s unit testing library, and basically what we’ve done is we made… I don’t know if you’re familiar with it; - it goes by a lot of names, but there’s property-based test, or generative testing, or fuzz testing, which we like because it’s fun. It may also be that we have an odd scenario. What’s happening at ElmConf? We’re talking about Elm, and I want to talk about that in-depth with regard to sprinkling it in, because that’s a new revelation to me as somebody who’s interested in Elm, but not quite ready to dive into the pool, so to speak. January 5th, 2016. But then if you hadn’t seen advice the first time, it didn’t end up making it. It ... As the Elm site boasts, “NoRedInk switched to Elm about two years ago, and 250k+ lines later, they still have not had to scramble to fix a confusing runtime exception in production.” The absence of visible errors on the user end, is an obvious advantage for a language. So I say, “We have no runtime exceptions,” and people are disbelieving because that sounds too awesome to be true. Thank you so much for taking the time to come back and share so much of this journey with our listeners and what you’re doing with Elm, obviously the conference, the book coming out, and all that you guys do at RedInk —NoRedInk… I said that last time in that little short… RedInk. This work was an extension of his senior thesis at Harvard University to make client-side web programming a good experience. Actually /examples has a ton of examples there as well, everything from effects to even types, recursion… A bunch of stuff that’s available to dig through and see how it actually lays out, and play with it. Is there anything, any last rock unturned that you want to mention, besides ElmConf, and to go? I want to make a shameless plug for my book, Elm in Action. And then we look at adoption; there’s a lot of different hurdles that you guys have to overcome to move people from interested, and, “It’s mysterious, and I would like to try it, but I’m not really sure how” and, Richard’s full-in… Like, “NoRedInk is full in on Elm, 37,000 lines of production code.”. Just like those languages, whatever you think about them, good or bad, do that really well, and so what can we learn from that? He holds an AB in Computer Science from Harvard. In fact, this happens quite often on the Changelog, but I think I hung up that call with Richard, and I told Adam, “Oh, I gotta build something with this.” And I never did. dodecaphonic What does modularity…? I think what I would take from Richard’s scenario is when you have a language that’s really easy to test, and catches errors for you with the compiler as aggressively, you can have really big chunks of data, and it works pretty well. Example usage of Elm "ports" that uses signals, non-signals, records, and tuples. I think we’ve covered quite a bit in today’s show. If you trace the roots of the term to the academic literature, it means a very particular thing. You say numbers like that and someone’s like, “Obviously, you need to split that up. That kind of came about by accident, that we have these really nice error messages. Free corpus-based web tool that allows language learners and teachers find authentic sentences for specific target word(s). Niharika Kohli Wikimedia Foundation. Functional Programming . In his free … The difference in how the workshops go has been extremely dramatic. I was writing C++, writing callbacks in C++, wondering why you would write callbacks in C++. [Chuckles] RICHARD: And this particular form is a way for teachers to create assignments. When he moved to Prezi in 2013, Czaplicki continued to work on the language and by 2016 when he was a senior Open Source Engineer at NoRedInk, he started the Elm Software Foundation. Have you looked at our schedule lately? I’m not a Clojure person so I haven’t been to his Clojure conferences, but I just assumed based on the quality of the other stuff that he’s done that they’re awesome, too. That’s something that I should’ve had been worrying about. We talked with Richard Feldman recently from NoRedInk about Elm on an upcoming show (episode #191) — to be published on January 15th. On the note of trying too, if you go to Elm-lang.org - for all those listeners going there right now, there’s actually a Try or Install, in marketing terms, a CTA, a call-to-action. One thing that’s been great for Elm is to have the JavaScript ecosystem start to edge towards ideas that show up in Elm. Elm also ecosystem … That’s sort of the whole process of modularizing a codebase. We cover that in the show, but is that the perfect place to say it? About 3/4 of our 30-person engineering team works remotely from around the world, and the … Yeah, of course, that’s always good. [laughter] There are times when I would get frustrated about this kind of thing. I generally categorize 0.17 as, we learned what it would look like to write good code, and we just made Elm accommodate that better. Visualizing Data with Elm June 8, 2017, 10:00AM, 20 minutes. I think that’s the first time I talked about Elm in public, giving a talk. And another thing to add, Richard mentioned it’s a language, it’s also the Elm architecture, so it’s very opinionated about how you should be building your web applications. I don’t have to necessarily dive all the way into the pool.”. He intended to develop it for his thesis in 2012. So I think there’s this idea—I’m not sure where it comes from, maybe Richard will know better — but that it’s all Elm or no Elm. I guess Evan’s probably the best at talking about what Elm is, since he made the whole thing. Adam, I want to take a second, and talk about some of our upcoming shows, because… I don’t know. Well, easier is always better. Build the Elm code with "elm --only-js Shanghai.elm" and include all of the JS in the HTML document. Evan created Elm. Immersing yourself in this set of tools that help you think in a different way is going to help you grow as a programmer. Yeah, like you said, I think Richard set a reminder. So you get a much wider coverage of corner cases, without having to write all of those corner cases yourself. Welcome back everyone, this is the Changelog and I am your host, Adam Stacoviak. [00:52:07.12] Going from interest to there, what are the things in the way? Evan Czaplicki Engineer Evan designs and develops Elm, the programming language behind NoRedInk’s user interface. I think over the next couple of years, we’ll be fleshing that out more and more. 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